SPOILER ALERT: This story contains spoilers for “Mrs. Table,” Episode 6 of “Hacks,” now streaming on Max.
In the final moments of the third season of “Hacks,” writer Ava Daniels (Hannah Einbinder) drove a stake through the heart of her multifaceted relationship with Joan Rivers-esque comedian Deborah Vance (Jean Smart). By blackmailing Deborah into making her head writer on the freshly ordered “Late Night With Deborah Vance,” Ava secured a dream job, but lost the trust that formed the foundation of the creative collaboration at the heart of “Hacks.” Of course, Ava would argue Deborah had done that first by revoking her initial employment offer to Ava out of fear and insecurity.
It’s taken more than half of Season 4 — plus a splattered branzino, a coyote-mauled corgi and some sage advice from guest star Rosie O’Donnell, playing herself — to get Deborah and Ava back to a place of mutual understanding. Until now, they’ve been locked in a not-so-cold war, with mean-spirited “pranks” so disruptive the network assigns the duo a third wheel in uptight HR lady Stacy (Michaela Watkins). The sixth episode, “Mrs. Table,” is the tale of one no good, very bad day that finally breaks the ice between our two antiheroines.
When Cher drops out her guest spot (“She, quote, ‘doesn’t want to’”), the “Late Night” producers pull in Ava’s actress ex Ruby (Lorenza Izzo) as a backup. Desperate to impress Ruby, Ava scrambles to get Deborah jokes for a desk bit, only for a capricious and vindictive Deborah to cancel the bit entirely and use the time to probe Ruby about embarrassing Ava stories on national television. Adding insult to injury, Ava realizes her own writers have a group chat without her and keep ordering extravagant lunches on her own dime — and when she tries to distract herself with the couple she’s been hooking up with, she gets dumped instead.
Deborah, for her part, goes on a journey of her own. Her daughter DJ (Kaitlin Olson) doesn’t even bother asking Deborah to be at the birth of her first grandchild; her beloved corgi gets attacked because Deborah forgot to close the doggie door and O’Donnell points out that Deborah’s recent success is clearly because something, or someone, helped her level up. So when Ava snaps, quits and drives through the backlot gate in a rage, Deborah actually feels tender enough to track her down to a beach, where they finally have a heart-to-heart.
“It felt like an inflection point,” Einbinder says of filming the scene on the season’s final night of production. In an interview with Variety, the Emmy-nominated actor discusses the many layers of Deborah and Ava’s bond, Los Angeles mall culture and why filming Ava’s total breakdown was “a really healing thing to do.”
I have to say I’ve felt very targeted this season as a Chevy Bolt driver who lives in Los Angeles. It feels like a specific type of person drives that car, and both Ava and I are it.
Well then, my comrade, I salute you.
Up until this point in the season, what was it like to play Ava and Deborah so openly at odds?
It’s definitely fun for Jean and I. We enjoy all ends of the spectrum of getting to portray these characters. We do this cute play fighting thing where after takes, we’ll make puppy dog faces at each other and be like, “No!” But then we’ll have fun no matter what we do.
I loved Ava hurling the branzino. It reminded me of that scene in “Sex and the City” where Carrie throws McDonald’s at the wall.
Oh, my God, wait — that’s so true. That’s so iconic.
What it was like to film Ava’s complete and total breakdown?
That was a really healing thing to do. I feel like getting to exorcise rage is actually therapeutic, even if it’s in the context of playing a character. That was definitely exhausting to exert that much emotion, but also really cathartic. In terms of the branzino throw, that’s where my athleticism took hold. I was really trying to execute with precise form and accuracy to get the branzino to hit a specific place on the window so that the lens on the other side would capture it. It was an intensive, well-rounded sort of acting challenge.
Sorry, I really should have asked how you trained for that.
Thank you. That’s more accurate of a term.
The fact that it happens in the writers’ room is so interesting, because after three seasons of Ava managing up to Deborah, you get Ava in a position of authority and managing down to other people. What was challenging for her about that experience?
I think we watch Ava approach being head writer with a certain amount of idealism. She wants to create a working environment that is positive and hyper-respectful, and ultimately gets walked all over. Ava and Deborah have this philosophical battle over what is the right way to be a boss of others. And ultimately, I think there’s validity to both Ava and Deborah’s perspectives on that. But Ava swings very far in the opposite direction, and it kind of backfires.
Do you think it helps Ava empathize with Deborah more, having been a boss herself?
That’s fair to say. She really had to play that part and that role in order to really feel what it was that Deborah was trying to impart to her. I think the only way out was through with that.
The climax of this episode is this beautiful conversation you have on the beach. What were the conditions of filming that scene like?
I mean, that was our last day of shooting, so it was definitely emotional. We shoot for six months, and so that’s a lot just for ourselves, and especially for our crew. There is a general sense of, “OK, this is the end of the road.” There’s such a high at the end, followed by this lifestyle shift where you’re not in there 13, 14 hours a day. So there were a lot of physical emotions manifesting between us, in the body. It was this emotional high within the show, but also, there we are weaving in and out of the actual reality that we live in, which is the end of the season. It felt like an inflection point, both within the show and also within reality.
An earlier episode was dedicated to those affected by the L.A. fires. What was it like to be in L.A. while all that was happening and shift the focus of the show more to Los Angeles?
It felt really impactful that we were able to recognize Los Angeles in that way — frankly, as we always do. It’s a testament to our show, and it’s a massive blessing that we’re privileged enough to work in L.A. Though it shouldn’t be a privilege, it is. Just generally, we’re always feeling grateful to be able to do that, but to be able to highlight it and call it out is also really meaningful.
A moment that really resonated with me was watching all the emotions go across your face when Deborah tells Ava that she’s her voice. What do you think Ava was working through in that moment?
It’s super layered. I think she is reluctant to get roped in. I think she wants to believe Deborah. I think she’s exhausted from such a crazy breakdown. And I think that that’s all happening at once, all happening simultaneously. I just tried to portray those layers as best I could.
On the other side, what do you think made Deborah finally able to be vulnerable with Ava again?
Deborah has this feeling that, no matter what, she can never lose Ava. That was tested, and I think it forced her to really realize how much [Ava] means. I also think the conversation between her and Rosie O’Donnell helps her to look at herself — helps her to look at the impact that Ava’s had on her, how much Ava has to do with the place that she’s in now. And just frankly, face the fact that, as we see outside Winnie Lindell’s house, there’s a moment where Ava thinks that they’re going to have a truce. It’s very early on in the season, she’s really ready to squash this beef. It’s Deborah who holds out. Deborah knows that. She knows that she’s punishing her; that’s her style. So the ball really is in her court when it comes to acquiescing and going to Ava to say, “Let’s end this.”
When you say she expects that she’s always going to have Ava, do you mean in the sense of taking Ava for granted?
That, and also, there was just a precedent set that Deborah can do whatever she wants. She can slap [Ava] across the face. She can fire her. She can lie to her. All of these grave things that have occurred — the fact that Ava’s still there and so devoted to her, she just thinks that there’s no limit, and Ava shows her that, yeah, there actually is a limit. That, I think, jolts her into reality.
When you say Ava doesn’t want to get pulled back in, what is it you think that makes her willing to actually put aside her misgivings at the end of that conversation?
I think it’s the point that Deborah makes about them having nothing to lose. Also, she’s looking across at Deborah Vance, who is soaking wet after just having emerged from the ocean at night. That’s a grand gesture. That’s the type of thing that Ava knows is really desperate. It’s a massive act of devotion. And that’s a huge part of what I tried to forecast on her face in the beginning, where she’s saying to Deborah, “Thanks for trying to save my life. I know that’s one of your best coats.” Whatever that line is. I think that Ava really understands Deborah Vance going into the ocean for her like that — that’s meaningful.
As an actor, was it a relief to have Deborah and Ava be on better terms from this point forward?
Yes! It’s so fun to play the love between the two of them. That’s always a joy. And we were really, really happy to get back to that.
I thought it was really interesting how this episode juxtaposed Ava’s romantic life with her relationship with Deborah. How do you think those two inform each other?
There’s a scene where Ava’s getting dumped, and they say, “It sounds like you’re not over your ex.” I think that Ava thinks about Deborah, and perhaps not Ruby, at that moment. This relationship between the two of them is tracked like a romance. The story itself is written like a romance. There are a lot of layers of enmeshment between Ava and Deborah. One is on that level — not necessarily romantic, but just in the space that that takes up for people. Also, Ava doesn’t have a great relationship with her mom, and Deborah doesn’t have a great relationship with her daughter. It’s almost a second chance that they both get at that type of dynamic. So I think it’s just layered. It’s this central relationship in her life, you know? She’s in a place of avoidance, because she’s really scared of being hurt and giving her heart over to another person, or people.
Finally: as an Angeleno, I’ve been so thrilled to see the Glendale Americana representation this season. Are you also a devotee of that mall?
I have to say I’m a Century City mall girl. That’s the mall that raised me. That’s the mall of my formative years. I have respect for the Americana and the place that holds for people. I want to honor that. But, for me, it’s always been about Westfield Century City. I’m also, you know, not jazzed on the Caruso property of it all, but I’m sure Mr. Westfield isn’t that great either. No ethical consumption under capitalism, I suppose. But yeah, I’m a Century City bitch.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
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